Recently were interviewed by the French RPG magazine "Jeu de Role." Since it's a lengthy article that covers a lot of useful information, we asked permission to reprint the interview in English. Enjoy! You can also learn more about them at http://jeu-de-role-magazine.fr/
JDR: Hello Eddy Webb, hello Rich Thomas.
EW: Hello!
RT: Hello and bonjour!
JDR: Can you explain your job at WW?
RT: I’m the Creative Director for CCP Transmedia. Currently, a large part of that job is WW RPG related just like the last 5 or 6 years as CD for WW, but with the extended idea of creating other projects that are all designed to allow fans to enjoy the worlds we create in a variety of media.
EW: I’m the Senior Transmedia Developer for White Wolf/CCP, which means I help in producing a variety of media products for the intellectual properties here at CCP. Right now, my main focus is on the RPG properties we have.
JDR: What is your favorite gameline or sourcebook?
EW: Do I only have to pick one? There are so many that I love. I think, though, I’ve always had a soft spot for the Vampire games, since those are what I was a fan of before I came to join the company.
RT: And also the game you met your wife playing. So good and bad there… just kidding, Michelle! If Book of Nod counts as a sourcebook, then that is still one of my all-time favorites for its inspiring use of both visuals and text. The core book for Adventure is also still a big favorite, and since that was a single book line then I’ll sidestep that really difficult choice of lines and pick it. After all, I’ve worked on all of them- that’s like picking one of your kids as favorite.
JDR: There are been a lot of changes at WW since a few years! The CCP merger, the new website and forums, the PoD program, the future WoD Online, anniversary editions of Classic WoD... What are your feelings about that?
RT: I feel that each of the examples cited are part of the necessary transformation of WW out of an outdated publishing model and into one that can grow and adapt to the rapidly changing ways that we all enjoy new worlds.
EW: Absolutely agree – a lot of these changes have been not only necessary, but exciting. At GenCon we called a lot of this “White Wolf 2.0,” and I think that’s really true. We’re in a different place now, and there’s a lot of potential.
JDR: The nWoD have seven years of development, 8 gamelines, a lot of sourcebooks for each creature. WW have announced a 9th game for 2012 : Mummy and three sourcebooks. Vampire, WoD, Changeling and Mage will have support as well. None for Werewolf Hunter Promethean or Geist? Why?
RT: We had ideas for all of the lines, but we have to look at what we can accomplish each year, and why, and make our decisions accordingly. Right now, we like to OK books that have impassioned pitches connected to them and not just put out books to “be fair” to each and every fan, because you can’t. Also, you forgot Scion.
EW: That’s very true – now that we’re not in a place where we have to put out books just to make ends meet, we can focus on making books that really add to a particular line or bring specific value. That doesn’t mean that the other games won’t get love – just that the right pitch or idea hasn’t come along yet.
JDR: Can you talk about the last sourcebooks (Danse Macabre, Mage CG, Werewolf Signs of the Moon and the CG, Glimpses of the Unknown)?
EW: I only worked on Glimpses of the Unknown and worked with the developer on the Forsaken Chronicler’s Guide, but I think that selection really shows the idea of the toolboxing of the new World of Darkness to full effect. There are lots of great little pieces in each of those books that players and Storytellers can use to get whatever effects work best at their table.
RT: Other than Glimpses of the Unknown, which is really more of the current PDF/PoD direction and not a last anything, those books were designed to empower the players to fine-tune the nWoD to their liking, as Eddy says. At the time, we also intended them as fond farewells to the old publishing model, but they were released more haphazardly than we expected and so that message got a bit garbled.
JDR: Can you give me a few comments about Requiem Strange Dead Love? Is it a "Twilight Requiem" ? Why a shard series about love? Have you planned other World Shards?
EW: Strange, Dead Love is a book that the Requiem line developer, Russell Bailey, has been pitching for a long time. One of the things that we both agreed about early on, though, is that it can’t be Twilight – the book needs to be grounded in the Requiem mythos. However, the style of Requiem as a line doesn’t blend well with an exploration of supernatural romance, so that’s why we decided to take the idea of world shards from World of Darkness: Mirrors and apply it to Vampire. If it works well, it’s an idea we might consider for future books, but mainly in this case it was a good balance between the source material we wanted to explore and the integrity of the core gameline.
RT: There’s something very romantic about the undead lover “crossing oceans of time” to be with their desired one, but not every Chronicle features that level of romance or is appropriate for it. Our previous attempts to work in romance as a theme resulted in whole books that not everyone was interested in, but with the Shards idea, those players who want to explore love and unlife can more easily fit those themes into their Chronicles. Or use the Shards to create a side Chronicle. And if players want to adapt a Shard that lets them get all Twilighty then they can enjoy that- and it doesn’t impact the base Requiem setting in any way.
JDR: Can you talk about the WoD SAS four part series? What are the themes? Any info about storylines? Is it really compatible with all gamelines?
RT: We really can’t say much about the specifics as we only just saw the first outline, but suffice to say that it’s being developed by Chuck “The Crazed Penmonkey from Pennsyltucky” Wendig and at least one part is being written by Matt McFarland, so expect to be swept along by amazing and well-plotted writing. Overall, the idea behind this SAS series is to take the SAS concept of scene-based stories that any Storyteller can adapt to their Chronicles and expand that to an interlocking series that has enough content for many nights of gripping play (and has value for Storytellers and players alike). That’s almost like ad copy- we should use that, Eddy.
EW: I am happy to have you do my job for me, Rich.
JDR: What is the public feedback for the SAS format? Can you explain this module concept?
EW: The SAS line is one of the first projects I worked on when I came to the company full-time, and I think it’s awesome. The idea is that stories are basically constructed with individual narrative units (what we call “scenes”) that can be modified, reorganized, and switched around as needed. By designing the stories to be modular, we can present a toolkit (there’s that word again) to help Storytellers present just the right version of the story for their needs.
RT: The original SAS concept came out of a realization I had that we were providing great material for experienced players, but nothing that really gave Storytellers and players ideas of what they could actually do- particularly if they were new to our games. Since one of the reasons we had heard that “adventures” never sold well for us was that our players hated being railroaded, we hit on dividing the SASes into scenes- which worked well with all the literary, stage, and screen motifs sprinkled through our books.
JDR: Mummy have two previous incarnations in the Classic WoD. In the nWoD, Promethean, Geist and WoD Immortals have already explored a few classic Mummy themes... How WW will create a third version of a very exploited theme? Any info on this new setting?
EW: It’s going to be interesting, certainly, but I’ve been spending a lot of time reading classic mummy stories and watching old mummy movies to find the core of the concept. I think there’s a slice there that isn’t really explored with either Promethean and Geist. I’m also talking to some other people who are very passionate about Mummy. But it’s all still very early, so I don’t have a lot to share – not because I’m trying to be coy, but because this is going to be a very organic and collaborative experience.
RT: I think it’s time to revisit Mummy- almost every new type of supernatural we’ve put out over the last few years has been accused of being Mummy again, so let’s do it for real.
JDR: WW publish Translation Guides for mixing the classic with the new WoD. WoD Mirrors, WoD Armory Reloaded and various Chronicler's Guides give us a lot of tools for customizing the WoD. Why ?
RT: The WoD- both classic and new- is really less about what WW says it is and is all about what YOU say it is. Of course, we provide the framework- which in the case of cWoD is much more setting oriented, and in the case of the nWoD is more rules- but the heart and soul is yours.
EW: Exactly. In many ways, this is a reflection of the way people are playing games now – more and more people are customizing and tweaking games at the table instead of assuming that there’s “one right way” to play them. We’re trying to offer options to facilitate that, while still giving solid support for a unified experience if that’s what people want – that “framework” that Rich mentions.
JDR: Have you planned other CG and TG [Chronicler’s Guides and Translation Guides]?
EW: We’ve only planned out to the end of 2012, and then announced everything we have planned. It’s a new way of doing things – we’re being very open with what we’re doing ahead of time, instead of being quiet about our upcoming plans. There may be more Chroniclers’ Guides and Translation Guides, but we haven’t really thought that far out yet.
RT: And really, once you get past the “big three” it becomes less clear how to translate one similarly named game to another. What does Wraith translate into? Geist, perhaps? CtD and CtL seem so different thematically that I wonder whether there’s interest in us putting one out. Now CGs for Promethean, etc. could be quite cool and something we’ll discuss for sure.
JDR: After Mummy, a Demon remake for 2013 or another creature? WoD Inferno covered the Possessed, not the playable Demons themselves...
EW: As I mentioned earlier, 2013 is pretty far away at this point. We’re taking each year as it comes and adapting to where we’re at now, instead of feeling like we have to cleave to a particular formula. Demons are certainly something that have been kicked around, as well as a few other ideas, but whether we even do a new game line at all in 2013 isn’t set in stone. We’re in a place now where we can do games and supporting books as they seem to make sense, rather than out of financial necessity, so we want to do each project because it feels right.
RT: It’s a good question, though. Maybe this year before the summer we’ll go direct to the fans and ask what they’d like to see as the next game line. Maybe.
JDR: WW, two years ago, has announced a "Digital Tools Suite" for WoD players... What is it? Where is it?
RT: All we can say is that neither Eddy nor I made that announcement, so we’re not aware of the challenges that those particular tools faced so that they are still unreleased. What I can say is that we in Transmedia are looking into digital tools to assist in keeping track of your characters and Chronicles and we’ll have more news next year.
EW: Indeed – since we’re a transmedia division, we’re intentionally looking at other avenues outside of books. We wanted to make sure that the books were stable and accessible first, but as our new model settles in, we’re going to look into other tools and media that can enhance the core White Wolf experience.
JDR: The nWoD have a very strong fondation, a lot of books and PDF, great crossover rules, a distinctive mood and feeling, alternate toolkits... What is the future of Requiem, Forsaken and Mage?
EW: Like I said, we’re going to do books as they feel right. I love a lot of our games to different degrees, but the years where we had to crank out new books every few months to make a gameline still be “alive” are passing. Now we can just do books that make sense, and that means that a particular game may or may not get books in a particular year. Like you say, we have nine new World of Darkness gamelines, and there’s also Exalted and Scion, and only so much time and room on each schedule.
RT: Since we already pretty much answered this, I think that the question is really leading up to the next question…
JDR: The three main games have already their "essentials" sourcebooks (clanbooks, antagonists, etc). Campaigns? "Shards" like Strange, Dead Love ? Crossovers like Chicago ? Metaplots books? Or is it time for a WoD Second Edition? A Requiem Revised? It's been 7 years!
EW: All of those things are possible, and are certainly ideas we’ve considered. But we’re taking each year as it comes.
RT: See? So, the thing is, there are several reasons to do a new edition but the most common is to rekindle the sales of a dwindling line. And a lot of times, this is because the creators have run out of ideas and the players know it. But in the case of nWoD, we have more cool ideas for products than we can get out in a year- and so as long as we do there’s no real reason to do new editions. Of course, just watch- we’ll announce new editions next year!
EW: Really, Rich is better at being me than I am.
RT: I only hired you so that one day I could escape my wizened husk and take over your body and life. It’s the hair- Eddy has long curly hair that I must have.
JDR: A lot of fans want limited gamelines for historic settings, like Requiem for Rome / Fall of the Camarilla dual books. Werewolf don't have a historical sourcebook (except the thin "Ancient Sumer" in WCG)... Geist or Promethean... Nothing. A Dark Ages gameline perhaps?
EW: While I’ve run Dark Ages: Vampire and Werewolf: Wild West in the past, the truth is that historical books don’t get as much fan (or financial) attention as our core games. When I did New Wave Requiem and Mage Noir as smaller, more specific historical books, however, those seemed to hit the right balance of good material into the right people’s hands. But each of those books had a reason for that game being explored in that time period – I’m not keen on just slapping a time period onto a game line and trying to make a book about it. We’re going to do Victorian Lost because I think there’s a lot of interesting balance between the story in Changeling and the Victorian era. If a historical product comes up for Werewolf or Geist or whatever that makes sense, we’ll certainly consider it.
RT: Pretty much what Eddy said- if there’s a cool thematic connection between a line and a time period and a compelling pitch, we’ll be just as excited to work on it as the fans will be to read and play it. I can’t wait to start working on Victorian Lost.
JDR: Can you explain the WW creation processes for a WoD sourcebook? (roles for each member, the crew, timelines, artwork, printer, etc)
RT: So generally, I start with looking at pitches from Eddy, our authors, fans, people I meet at parties- you name it. Then Eddy and I sit down and work out which pitches seem like the best fit for the coming year. We then figure out budgets, which roles can be filled in-house and which need freelancers, and Eddy tries to put them into a schedule.
EW: At that point, I either develop the book myself, or look for a freelance developer that would do justice to the idea. Either I or the developer (or both of us) work on an outline, and I approve that. If it’s a freelance developer, I then leave the book largely in their hands, but if I’m developing it, I then find writers that would work well with the material and each other, and we work on the first draft. I edit and comment on their draft (what we call “redlining”), and they make changes for the final draft. That draft gets revised again and then sent to an editor as well as to the art director.
RT: The art director- which will be me a lot of the time- will take that text and after deciding how many pieces the product needs will hire artists using the text as a basis for their assignments. Ideally, the art and the edited text come back at the same time into the hands of the layout artist/graphic designer: who with consultation with the developer and art director then begins to put the text, design elements, and art together using a format that we’ve established for the game line. We go through several rounds of proofs, corrections are made, and the book goes to press.
JDR: WW is the first big rpg company to switch to the print on demand strategy. Can you explain this major publishing change?
RT: While we’re completely committed to electronic publishing, we also recognize that we’re in a business where traditionally our games were books- and a lot of people still love the feel of a bound book in their hands (including me). Fortunately, our publishing partner DriveThruRPG is ramping up their Now In Print PoD program as a complement to our PDFs. The best of both worlds!
EW: Exactly. I really would love our games to become format agnostic – you can read the book in your hands, on an iPad, on your phone, or whatever device makes sense for you and your group. If we can quickly and easily get the game into more people’s hands, the more people will play them.
JDR: Vampire V20 and now Werewolf V20... followed by 7 new publications... The Classic WoD is back! Why WW bring back the cWoD? You want / can support the two universes at the same time? Or is it a commercial strategy for the future MMO?
RT: For probably the only time in the almost twenty years I’ve been at WW can we reasonably provide fans of multiple versions of the World of Darkness with support in the form of new products because we’re no longer fighting for shelf space in a store. There’s no reason for “either/or”, now it’s an “and”, and really, isn’t it better that everyone who loves some version of our worlds share that enthusiasm with everyone else who loves them?
EW: Further, we can support the classic World of Darkness with our previous books in a way we couldn’t do before. Now fans can get, say, Mind’s Eye Theatre: The Oblivion just as easily as our latest sourcebook. Since it’s been a few years, it’s fun to go back and add some new pieces to the classic World of Darkness, but there’s not a lot of need to crank out a massive amount of support material, because our twenty years of back library are already there.
JDR: Your feelings about GenCon 2011?
EW: GenCon is always amazing, and exhausting. This particular year was great because we were finally able to announce and talk about these strategies and new directions for projects that have been discussed internally for years. I enjoy working on building up new ideas, but at some point it’s just a relief to actually be able to talk about what you’ve been working on.
RT: Yes, a thousand times. There were so many times we were just aching to announce what we were putting together but couldn’t. The pieces just weren’t ready. GenCon 2011 was the first time we could present a coherent plan rather than vague promises. It felt, and feels, great!
JDR: Your feelings about the upcoming Grande Masquerade in September?
RT: I expect that it will surpass last year- and last year was one amazing moment after the other. And this year, V20 will be unveiled there. The city, the wonderful stories and talks with the fans, the Sazerac cocktails…
EW: … the Succubus Club party, the costumes, the amazing roleplay. Yes, last year’s Grand Masquerade was a crazy, wonderful experience, and I’m curious to see how we top it this year!
JDR: In France the WoD gamelines go to Oblivion. Most gamers don't read english. Any news? Translation for Mage the Awakening has been done but... not a single news since three years... for books or PDF. WW, I think french fans need help! The french cWoD and nWoD have disappeared!
RT: First, WW needs a reliable French translator. Then we’ll let them take a try with V20. If that’s a good deal for all of us, then other translations are possible. WW isn’t against translated editions, we’d love more, but good partners are hard to find.
EW: Exactly. We need to find the right partner.
JDR: WW have published two free novels in his website : Strangeness in proportion and Silent Knife. When we'll see a PoD or compiled PDF version? Can you talk about it?
EW: We’re working on those, as well as getting the books into ebook outlets like the Apple iBook store, Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and so on. It’s a new area that we’re exploring, and like all of these new things we’re trying it’s taking some trial and error while we’re learning about it, but at some point people will certainly be able to buy and enjoy these two novels.
RT: If you, like us, want more fiction, then please keep an eye out for when these two books hit the ePublishing marketplaces and tell your friends. Buy a copy and post a review. I know it sounds like I’m shilling, but the fact is that with the advent of the ePub combined with social networks means the success of one of our Fiction books is more in the fans’ hands than ever before.
JDR: What is the future of the WoD novels? Is it cancelled?
EW: Quite the opposite. We haven’t done novels in years, and these two are a good chance for us to see if we can get back into that space and make it work for us and for the fans. If it does, we can try other things with fiction, such as getting our old novels back out there as well as possibly working on new ones. But right now, we want to get these two out there first and see how they do before we make any plans.
RT: Fiction was the one schedule we weren’t able to get lined up before August for the very reasons Eddy states above. But we remain very interested in being able to allow another way to enjoy our worlds.
JDR: Mirrors World and Genre Shards like Woundgate and Bleeding Edge or Infinite Macabre gave a lot of fan feedback. Do you read forums (WW, RPG.net, Shadownessence...) and reviews?
RT: I read everything. I’m prowling the intrawebs constantly. There are so many decisions that we would have made differently if we had had such a phenomenal ability to hear from and relate to the fans so intimately and quickly a decade or so ago. I’m not saying that any of our decisions should be driven by the comments we get, but if we can look at the underlying reasons behind those comments I think we can appreciate better when to give folks what they want and when to innovate and give folks what they didn’t know they needed.
EW: I am constantly on Twitter, Facebook, and other social media networks, and it seems like every day I’m chatting with fans. I agree with Rich – there’s a fine line between listening to feedback and doing everything that every fan wants, but discussions online have often helped us from making a mistake on a current project or get a sense of how we should prioritize the million-and-one things on our plate at any time. The community is a valuable part of our process.
JDR: Wizards of the Coast has cancelled the sale of PDFs because of piracy. What do you think about piracy and this decision?
RT: I can’t really speak for WOTC or any of their decisions, but I think worrying about piracy is a waste of time. Frankly, it’s old business thinking. I’m not saying that WW or CCP are going to stop legally protecting our IPs, just that there are some new ways of considering IP protection and what you really get, and lose, when trying to implement them in the electronic marketplace.
EW: I agree – piracy is a complex issue. We certainly don’t like that people are stealing our products, but the whole business model is changing, and where piracy falls into that new model has to be something we’re constantly thinking about and assessing.
JDR: The PDF market it is as big as the traditional rpg market?
EW: I don’t think it is, but the market for PDF and print-on-demand books is steadily growing, while the traditional market appears to be steadily shrinking. At some point, I think the digital marketplace will equal or overshadow the traditional one – it’s already starting to happen in traditional publishing, for example.
RT: In addition to the growth of the PDF market because more and more gamers used to the physical books on shelves method are now trying PDFs on tablets, I think we’ll also have a better chance of providing a new generation of potential “tabletop” gamers with RPGs that are accessible to them online- the way they get most of their entertainment.
JDR: Do you think that other rpg companies will move to the PoD strategy? (FFG, Paizo...) Or are you a very specific case?
RT: I’m sure of it. There is still a lot of utility, as well as the delights of having something beautifully physical in your hands, with books. PoD allows you to have the books you want to own as books because that works better for you- yet the PDFs are still available as well..
EW: I agree. The big publishing houses outside of the RPG industry are moving to print-on-demand in specific cases, and are adopting it more and more. It’s only a matter of time. There will always be need for more traditional offset printing, but I think those will become more and more about special needs rather than the way business is done.
RT: As our deluxe editions of V20 prove.
JDR: The tabletop rpg are in decline? The PoD and PDF are the future of the rpg industry?
RT: Well, we’ve certainly made a lot of decisions based on that idea. Everything we’ve seen indicates that the answer is yes to both questions. Now, does this mean that tabletop RPGs are dead? Absolutely not, and I think the fact that we have found another, arguably better, way for games to be made, delivered, and enjoyed suggests that tabletop RPGs will live very nicely in the electronic marketplace.
EW: Right. Further, I think they are evolving, and the lines between a tabletop experience, a live-action experience, and an online experience are blurring more and more. At some point, it’ll be harder to tell where a tabletop game ends and a video game begins.
RT: Stop! My head is spinning! Careful with all that Transmedia-like talk.
EW: It’s what I do.
JDR: An EVE tabletop rpg... it is possible?
RT: In this whole endless universe…anything is possible.
EW: We’re always keeping our mind open to new possibilities, and an EVE RPG is certainly one of those.
JDR: How long takes the creation of a new game? Same question for a sourcebook.
EW: A new game takes about a year, more or less, in my experience. A sourcebook, since it’s generally smaller and built on the foundation of the existing game, takes closer to 5-7 months.
RT: Really depends on the size of the book. A larger book=more time. It is nice though that the traditional printing time is now out of the equation and we can go from initial idea to final product on sale a lot more quickly- which means more time for play-testing, editing, and instantly changing any errors that are revealed by the first wave or so of purchasers.
JDR: The Mummy corebook will be very different (two books? ?) Can you explain why?
RT: One of the things we have been experimenting with in our new publishing model is how people would like the books to be arranged. With Mummy, we’re looking to provide a “virtual box set” that feels like the cool contents you’d see when you first pulled the top off one of the classic box sets. The Mummy book, conveniently broken into two so you can more easily grab the one you need, an adventure, and a couple of other appropriate pieces. With that being said, we’re still going to have Mummy available as a single volume in PDF/PoD versions as well.
EW: Exactly – we know that people still equate White Wolf games with a single large volume, so we want to make sure that experience is still available, while making things in the digital side a little more convenient and approachable.
JDR: What do you think about "Edition Wars" that often appears on various forums?
EW: I think it’s great that people are very passionate about role-playing games, period. I personally don’t indulge in a lot of them – I play multiple editions of Vampire and D&D as my interests dictates rather than out of any particular loyalty to a particular edition, for example – but I can certainly understand why people would be very vocal about their love for a particular interpretation of the games they love.
RT: Agreed. There’s an alchemical mix of ingredients that makes a certain edition of a game “your edition”: that combination of the rules that work just right for how you want to play, the setting that draws you in like no other, the friends you’re playing with, and just where you are in your life when you discovered the game. This is all very strong, almost visceral, stuff and it’s no wonder folks feel strongly.
JDR: The creators of the WoD, Mark Rein Hagen and Stewart Wieck, did they kept in touch with WW or the WoD, one way or another?
RT: Both Stew and Mark are busy with their own projects and not involved in WW any longer. Stew has Nocturnal, an RPG company that is currently publishing Pendragon, and last we heard Mark was heavily involved in civil rights issues in eastern Europe.
EW: I had heard they were kept in the basement and fed scraps of meat to keep them alive, but your answer is much more likely.
RT: I heard that Mark had died, and requested that his ashes be dropped into the ink for V20. But that’s just crazy talk.